In fact, interestingly enough, we do notice from your diaries that your meeting with Roy Smedley

seems to have taken place at almost exactly the same time as the now notorious sweary e-mail was sent.

I was in that meeting, so I couldn't possibly have sent it.

I wasn't suggesting... it was your chief press officer.

Yes, yes, it was, and her father's just died, yep.

I'm very sorry to hear that. No-one was suggesting...

No, and quite right too, but you know what people are like.

Going back to my initial concern, it would now seem that the two meetings

that you had with the two special education advisors provided you with two opposing verdicts.

Yes. And yet you came up with one, so would it be therefore true to say

that the government is intent on pushing this through, regardless of what anyone says?

No. We wanted two opinions because we wanted to start a debate.

Not much of a debate if you ignore one and just go with the other.

It's a personal thing, but if government isn't personal, then what the hell is it?

My senior advisor Glenn Cullen has a son,

his name is Peter and he has special educational needs.

Glenn obviously wouldn't say anything about it, he's far too professional.

But I had the privilege of going down with Glenn to Peter's SEN school

and watched Peter playing the trombone in the school orchestra.

It wasn't very good...

um...struggled manfully,

and Glenn leaned over to me and he said,

"If only this was a Super School,

"inclusion is not an illusion".

And, er...

I think that tipped the balance for me.

It's a personal thing.

Look, say something. Well, what is to say?

I can't believe you did that. You were the one who said do what you have to do.

I understand that and I know nothing is sacred but I didn't mean for you to do that.

Then why were you... were you misleading me? Oh, don't give me that bollocks.

Look, I'm sorry, OK? I'm really sorry.

D'you know, I wish I'd kept Peter's trombone because if I had,

I would shove it up your arse right now, wide end first.

Listen, you're the best senior advisor anybody could want and...

Come on, you're my best pal. OK.