like, you know, when you get hair and, um, soap in a plughole,

with...skin flakes.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr Williams. That's, that's fine.

Sorry, can I just say... We are very pressed for time.

Yeah, but I really didn't want the last thing that I said, erm...

I'm sorry. ..to be skin flakes. Thank you.

When did you first become aware of Mr Tickel?

When he became the only, erm, key worker

to refuse our offer of alternative accommodation.

Then he sort of dropped off my radar.

The next thing I knew, he was sewing badges on his tent

and shouting abuse through a loudhailer.

Did you ever feel yourself to be culpable in any way for his...

for his homelessness?

Look, he was homeless only in the sense that he had no home. Er...

LAUGHTER

No, no, a housing association flat was found, which he declined.

The POLICY didn't make him homeless.

The policy of selling off the block of flats where he lived.

He made a positive decision to be homeless.

It's the difference between being punched in the face and punching yourself in the face.

SNIGGERING

Um...

Well, and why do you think, to use your phrase,

he punched himself in the face?

Why? Well, because he was mentally, er, er...

Because he...he had, er...

mental issues.

The e-mail leaked to The Guardian,

which you'll find on pages 276 to 277 in the evidence,

one of your advisers describes Mr Tickel as...

erm, "fucking Florence Shiteingale".

Do you not feel that's, er, a little callous?

This is, this is rough and tumble office banter,

schoolboy showers stuff, and schoolgirls' showers, er...

Not that... I mean, not, not literally, but, er...